• Major concerns about building_system_3
    19 replies, posted
  • Avatar of gOitRe
  • First of all, I'd like to say I waited until the very last moment until posting my shit here as I was hoping for some kind of communication and/or official statements from any Facepunch worker on the matter, but unless I missed something, nothing came out to tone down my fears... Just to be sure everyone has the right setting, about a month ago, André Straubmeier started working on a building_system_3 branch, obviously a needed update to the actual building system which has suffered from various front & back end issues for long enough. Very cool, as an advanced builder that spent more than half of his gametime playing around with building mechanics in every possible way, I could only welcome a dustoff that I myself felt very needed...until I realized, by looking at the Commits for November 2017, that it might in fact mean to be an actual regression. I'll try my best to explain why, and for that we'll need to break a few things down: With the actual building system, basic base building is easy enought to let everyone build a small shack (anyone can build a 2x2) without much efforts. Moving towards trying more complexe types of building (X stories, layered, etc) takes a bit of time & pratice, but guess what, this is the core of what makes building in Rust enjoyable: There is an actual progression as you get to understand how/if things can be arranged in such ways or not, and as you progress, new perspectives you didn't knew or though about earlier slowy emmerge, and after some trials/errors, the feeling you get upon completion is the most rewarding thing! After a while, as snap building feels so limitated and gets boring fast, any true dedicated builder will feel the need to look for different ways of arranging things, and often end up playing around with foundations to either build double walls or simply offset some foundations off the grid, which then results in a signifiantly increased potential of building creativity. (I will post screenshots of things one can only do with double/triple walls soon) They are many ways of arranging foundations in order to allow unusual placement of supported elements be it walls/doorways/etc. While some of them are obvious & easy to perform, other building techniques actually require some proper knowledge, a good use of logic & planning to be actually built into something usable, and you know what...? Mastering those ways is lastest level of progression a dedicated Rust builder can get to; and you're about to kill it:   New building proximity checks to counteract wallstacking / honeycombing exploits Additional building proximity checks  Would you please care to elaborate a bit on what you call "wallstacking / honeycombing exploits"? While they can be used for the same thing, wallstacking & honeycombing are two very distinct things and shouldn't be treated the same. Why exactly do you want to prevent wall stacking? What is the problem with it? Newmans not instantaly figuring out how it's done? Learning is the key to success, and once again part of what makes this game enjoyable. While they are some dirty ways of doing it that SHOULD be taken out (I'm mostly thinking about overlapping foundations/walls out of their extremeties, also "flying" non socketed walls, typically triangle walls on a square foundations) there are also 'clean' or 'legit' ways of stacking (no overlapping at all) by carefully arranging/managing foundations gap spaces that SHOULD remain an option as it's based on simple logic & geometry. We should always be able to place things as long as they are not touching each other, no matter what, there's no arguable reason why we shouldn't. There are countless designs either be it for survival vanilla gameplay (Houses, trapbases, others, etc) or modded servers (server hubs, trivia builds like hotels/prisons/etc, minigames) that fully rely on this ability, and that will become impossible to build at all unless using pesky plugins. The huge buff foundation spacing gives to building creativity cannot be ignored & shredded to bits in such a pityfull way. Disabling everything without dinstinction would be the crappiest move ever, as it would severaly reduce building potential, which is already pretty slim in it's current state. Unless you don't mind pissing off the whole advanced building/fortify/modding/machinima & other creative content makers communities, you might want to reconcider these changes. On a personnal note/as if my opinion mattered: I don't like honeycombing much, I haven't seen anything in real life that comes close to it unless you are into armored vehicle/boat building. While removing the ability to build honeycombs would be absurd (we should always be able to build whatever we want within reasonable boundaries),  I wouldn't mind if Facepunch made empty sealed volumes decay way faster, which would result in greatly increased base upkeep costs. On the other hand, double/triple walls makes sense as it is how building shielding is achieved in real life, I fully support legit wallstacking as it can get very complex & definitely some sort of art.  Once again it definitely should NOT be treated as a whole (this is the main & only point of this post)  [Flames] What I expected from building 3: >New building blocks. >Key toggles to snap/unsnap to grid & mirror blocks, a nice step forward free building. What we will most likely get: >Added half height walls & Foundations can be attached to other foundations with a half height offset -in fact nothing new as we could already get half height by using stair foundation block, it will just be easier- >A signifiant loss of building potential/creativity due to new proximity rules. >An horrible feeling of race to the bottom. [/Flames] Concidering how crucial building is in this game, a few explanations on the real intent would be more than welcome here. While I don't doubt the initial intentions of these changes are fine, the lack of communication on the topic makes it sound like you don't even realize what you are about to bury. Don't get me wrong, this post is nothing like a troll, maybe i'm taking the game a bit too seriously but I can ensure you i'm not the only one to feel really bad about this huge nerf to building opportunities. P.S: Will edit to post a few screenshots.
  • Avatar of gOitRe
  • New building system is live on staging...and it sucks! The nerf to building creativity is even worse then what I thought. Facepunch, trying to balance building around PvP concerns only, ignoring the creative (aesthetics concerns) part of it is a huge mistake, and only manages to show how big your missunderstanding of your own game actually is... Guess it could mean it's about time for me to move along.
  • Whats the new system like/what does it change? Havent had the chance to mess with it yet.
  • Avatar of Prost
  • I have a feeling that "building creativity" is being used here to refer to system exploitation for base survivability. The methods of wall stacking used before were creative at some point, but after youtube and subreddit/forum discussion, they have become very well known, and have essentially become the only viable, optimal methods of base building. If you build a nice looking base, or an interesting base, it will not be as survivably optimal, and is an easy-to-raid waste of time. I understand that you are saying the old, once-creative ways of making a durable base are lost. But, I think the intent was to make many, many more build strategies viable by nerfing these few, janky-looking,, high-efficency (space to durability) builds. Consider that, with equal time invested, there is a high chance that there are likely many other creative, interesting ways to build an effective base that make take longer than a day (or a week) to develop. Just because you haven't quickly found them does not mean the new system is defacto worse. Cheers, dude. Not saying you are wrong, but your reaction seems knee-jerk, and I would like to encourage open-mindedness.
  • Avatar of Chevleon
  • That looks like a bug, the devs will probably fix that. It's not the end of the world, so stop acting like it is.
  • Avatar of TerraNovaClick
  • I'm hoping that they push it to next month anyways. I'd rather a finished, polished system than a month of constant fixes to a broken system. Good video, man.
  • Avatar of Sunrider
  • As an experienced builder as well, i completely agree whit you, and im also concerned of what can happen. I also think that we need to share this post everywhere, so even those who arent builders can get it as well. It might be a little bit extensive, but its got all the truth. I hope the Fp Devs see their mistake here and change it as soon as possible.
  • The Building 3.0 update worries me. It removes wallstacking and a lot of other creative features in the game. I make all my YouTube videos on base builds, and building has just gotten so much more dull. I worry about staying relevant in a community that is increasingly turning away from creative base-building
  • the building system in rust is a mess. the tiers should be used for strength. not having 8 walls stacked up next to each other. its stupid and convoluted sorry you put 1000 hours into learning the most ridiculous part of this game that was guaranteed to be changed from the beginning
  • I personally don't see what the big deal is. I barely honeycombed anything anyways, never bothered to try to wall-stack. I feel like excessive wall-stacking and honeycombing is something large groups take advantage of.
  • This is basically just a shift in who's turn it is to cry now. The people who don't like wall stacking have been crying for a while, now the people who like wall stacking get a chance to cry.
  • Avatar of gOitRe
  • Don't you think there's a reason why I haven't used terms like 'survivability' or 'base security' a single time in my posts? Simply because that's not what i'm talking about... I'm talking about the building mechanics themselves, not about what people do with them in survival mode. Rust has more to offer than the usual #BarrelBash#JustKOS#AK>@ll#Reggin gameplay most players experience (there are some people/servers dedicated to free building like you'd find in Minecraft, RP servers where many trivia builds are placed to encourage player interactions & others, minigames, arenas, etc, most make an extended use of double/triple/quadra walls) Why do defend clean double/triple walls? Because they allow interesting combinaisons (window+wall / window+door / frame+window / etc, the list goes on & on) which simply can't be built without, and the MANY creative uses it gives simply cannot be ignored. From now on, such players/servers (who will have to rely on Oxide plugins to fix building) will be forced to the modded tab of the game. Again, i'm only talking about the creative uses of the building system, what you say about me is completely wrong & basicly off topic. The big deal is that the game as a whole; by focusing on a single aspect and ignoring the others... by slowly becoming more linear & predictable; from both vanilla-survival / modded-creative perspectives; is going backwards.
  • Avatar of kilokweal
  • Wait til TC bleeding is a thing guys. Satchel a foundy to 1/4 health let TC repair the damage, repeat until the tc is empty. Then wait an hour or two and you get straight to loot. How is this at all bettering the building system. Now when you get raided unless you log in right in time your base will decay to nothing.....
  • Avatar of Prost
  • I think I may have made assumptions about your post, but I don't have an independent way to correct them. The use or triple-walls to build some sort of specialized (RP?) structure on a modded server seems extremely niche. Is your argument that this niche usefulness justifies keeping the old building system? Can you give me some examples why you would want something like a stacked frame/window or window/wall? I can't see any usefulness outside of structural integrity; when the wall pieces crash together, they usually look terrible. Is it a cosmetic justification?